The Future Of Mental Health, Wellness and Performance

Chris:

Hello digital health community. I am thrilled. Our guest today is Sarah Hill, CEO of Healium, one of the cooler digital health companies we've come across. Healium is like a personal trainer for your mental health, teaching people how to control their own brain waves and heart rate. Using the immersion of virtual reality. We're going to talk about the confluence of mental health needs, technology and market conditions that have paved the way for Healium. What makes Healium work and even business models within digital health. Sarah, welcome to the podcast  you please briefly introduce yourself to our audience?

Sarah:

Absolutely, great to be in the virtual room with all of you, Sarah Hill, CEO of Healium excited about a conversation that's going to happen about immersive media about mental wellness and drugless non harmful coping mechanisms.

Chris:

Great and Sarah, you have an interesting, I believe that I find it an interesting journey to get to this point. You've won 12 Mid America Emmys as a former TV journalist. And you also develop Healium for yourself as well as millions of others who want to self heal in terms of mental health. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey? And how did you end up starting Healium?

Sarah:

So I am a former television journalist. And for decades, I covered a lot of trauma. You know, as a local television news reporter for NBC, CBS News affiliates in the Midwest, you cover rapes, murders, we went in with the trauma teams in the aftermath of the tsunami in Sri Lanka, in Indonesia, floods, tornadoes, you know, sometimes the worst day of someone's life, you're having to not only cover it, but immerse yourself in those, you know, very hurting stories, in order to be able to properly empathize, empathize with their situation. So you can tell, tell those stories in a good way. And ultimately, that led to an inability to sleep. And, you know, I developed Healium for me, as well as the millions of people who struggle with anxiety and insomnia and want to feel better and sleep better. And, you know, 15 years ago, my media diet, what I was consuming with my eyes, in my social media feed or on television or in movies, or what have you was broken. What I was covering, you know, everyday at work, it was, it was broken, my media diet was broken. And all of that negative fiber ultimately made me sick. And so I set out on a course to create some positive fiber in your media diet as a drugless non harmful coping mechanism. I teamed up with my co-founder, Dr. Jeff Tarrant, with the neuro meditation Institute. He, you know, was doing neurofeedback, and, and still is, and he wrote a protocol for me many years ago, 15 years ago, so that I could learn to self regulate my brain patterns in my heart rate. And fast forward to, you know, seven or eight years ago, we were doing virtual tours for a group of terminally ill and aging World War Two veterans who weren't able to physically travel to see their memorials. And so inside virtual reality goggles, they have the ability to feel like they were at the memorial, even though they weren't physically there. And through that experience, we noticed that virtual reality and augmented reality, in to a lesser degree appear to be impacting the user in ways far beyond, you know, ways that traditional media do. You, they take deep cleansing breaths, they'd relax their shoulders, they'd sit back in their chair, and they would take off the headset and say, I like how I felt and that kind of watching again. And, you know, to me, as a journalist, a naturally curious person, I wondered what is happening to these individuals? And can we create the media in a way that actually has an, an even more positive impact on their, their physiology? And so my co founder, Dr. Tarrant started doing brain maps or full, you know, EEG scans with, you know, a bunch of sensors and glue electrodes on all over the head to try to discern, you know, how this kind of immersive media was impacting brain patterns and heart rate. And the short answer to that question is we found it was very quickly shifting brain patterns associated with the stress response. And so we started doing even more research, other people started doing more research and make a long story short, you know, there are six peer reviewed journal articles. In different, you know, IRB studies in institutional review board word studies, looking at how MP, Healium impacts brain pattern and heart and heart rate, brain patterns in heart rate, and it impacts it in a very unique way. And so we developed a product and that product is Healium in either virtual reality or in augmented reality.

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Chris:

Right, it's based on neuro meditation or, well, gosh, I mean, just to get my terms, right. I know meditation myself. I know hypnosis. And what, how does neuro meditation differ from these types of treatments?

Sarah:

Yeah, Dr. Tarrant wrote the book on neuro meditation, so I encourage you to Google his book, meditation styles to rewire the brain, it's on Amazon. And it's, you know, essentially, not all meditation is the same, there are different flavours, you might need to meditate for calm or focus, or mindfulness or positivity. And so we're just, you know, using these meditations and making them visual. And so you know, there's certainly a place for traditional meditation. And we're not saying that, you should abandon your current practice that's working for you, this is just a new flavour. It's visual, and it's immersive. And ultimately, the brain believes what it sees. And so if you are placing someone virtually inside, you know, a beautiful waterfall, well, the body is responding as if it's in the waterfall, it's enjoying it. And you know, the brain is thinking it's there. Even though you know, you as a person really know you're not in the waterfall, you're only in a bubble of video, the body is responding as if it's there. And we can tie brain patterns to assets inside again, inside of a game engine. So for instance, if you, you know, quiet your mind, well, that can trigger you know, a firefly to go up and down, it can trigger trigger the colors to change on a Jaguars fur or your stress animals for others that you know, it can make the flurries fly inside a magic snow globe. That's really just what we're doing is teaching the user to learn to self regulate their brain patterns and their heart rate. But then also create stored memories that they can go back to in a stressful situation. All of these are beautiful nature based escapes that have the option to be powered by their brain patterns, or their heart rate via wearables, they would already have in a home, whether that be a consumer grade EEG meditation headband, or the Apple raw watch that's on their wrist, they can, you know, actually see that data instead of being a flat number sequestered on their wrist. It's spatial, it's set out into the world. And it's something that the user can actually see and learn to control.

Chris:

Right? So we have what is that user experience for, let's say, someone who's trying to relieve their stress or anxiety, they come onto the platform, and then they fire up the Healium application on, let's say, their Oculus? What did they get to choose from? And then what did they get to see as far as that feedback as to how they're impacting themselves?

Sarah:

Yeah, so you can go to our website at tryHealium.com and Healium is spelled H E A L I U M, like healing, try Healium.com. You can, we have a free trial. So sign up for the free trial. And you can create a login and then you log in via the app on Oculus or PICO headsets for hardware were hardware agnostic. So you can search for Healium in your virtual reality app store, just type in H E A L I U M. Into the App Store, download it, it's a free app to download the simplest version of Healium. Or if you have a trial, if that will give you access to all of our pro content and you log in with that trial login. And then you are presented with, you know more than 30 different experiences. Some of them are guided meditations. Some of them are nature scenes, and they are segmented into calm, focus, positivity, mindfulness, and then also sleepy. And sleepy, um, is a new, you can see my air quotes digital drug for, you know, bedtime stories, right? So much as if you know, you used to count sheep, or if you're listening to an audio of you know, a waterfall, it's kind of akin to that for people who are visual. So you know, before you go to bed at night, wouldn't it be nice if we could all like immerse ourselves in a real waterfall, or, you know, go back to the beach. And while you can do that with your mind, this is just a different flavor where you, you can actually be there virtually, and the brain believes what it sees. So therefore, you know, your breathing is slowing as you're inside these experiences, which is helpful, as you're, you know, learning to downshift your nervous system. And that's really all all we're doing is, you know, providing people with those drugless non harmful coping mechanisms that allow them to learn to self regulate, it's not a replacement for psychotropic medication, or professional counselling, which, you know, we all know is one of the best things that we can do for ourselves. It is just media, and something that allows us to unlock, you know, those healing powers that we already have inside ourselves, that we can learn to become more self aware of what's happening inside our bodies.

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Chris:

Right. And, gosh, when we talked last time, we talked around how, you know, we live or you mentioned, we live in this new era of like this, this stress Olympics. And there's really a confluence of things that have happened to make new digital therapies like Healium, you know, the absolutely needed right at this moment. Do you want to talk any about those? Like, what, what are some of these trends that we're seeing in terms of consumer readiness and need for something like Healium?

Sarah:

Yes, it's a great question. This is the stress Olympics, and not everyone is trained for it. And so you know, all of those wearables that you have on your wrist or as an EEG headband, I mean, what are you going to do with all that data? Well, Healium allows you to train with it. And just as you would train your body, this is mental fitness or training for, for your mind. This is a mental health emergency, we all know, you know, especially with our youth and young adults, that suicidal ideation is at an all time high among either elite athletes, or among worker athletes, or tactical athletes, and by that I mean, nurses and physicians who are on the front lines of, you know, literally, this, this mental health emergency. And so, you know, this is just a different way that in research has been shown to be, you know, more effective for certain groups than audio only met at meditation. And again, there are different flavours. And you know, there might be some time when you need an audio only meditation, and then there might be another time when you need a quick fire extinguisher to quickly, you know, interrupt that stress response.

Chris:

Right. Yeah, and you mentioned, I mean, just such a wide variety of people and professions that are going to be experiencing stress nowadays, whether it's professional athletes, or people on the frontlines during COVID, or whomever it seems like it's everywhere, who have been your kind of early adopters and users are not even early at this point. But but some of the particular customer types that are really finding value through Healium?

Sarah:

Worker athletes, and by that, you know, I mean, those physicians and those nurses who are absolutely concerned about their human performance, and, you know, in the height of COVID, in the middle of the pandemic, Healium was used in, in those incidences to allow those frontline health care workers to have some virtual peace, and it was shown to quickly improve mood states and improve feelings of happiness. So certainly, we all have stressful positions. And Healium is, you know, tailor made not only for those areas of acute situational confined stress like, you know, a hospital for their employees, but also an aircraft carrier. Healium, Healium has been used out on the middle of the USS Nimitz in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, where those sailors did not have access to nature for, for months. And, you know, Healium can, can bring that, that virtual nature, but beyond worker athletes, you know, anyone is, is in the stress Olympics, obviously. And, you know, these are just just some ways that in a visual a way, you can create some some stored memories that you can come back to when you have a stressful situation that comes about, but the most success with, with Healium has been in those areas of acute stress where you need to quickly have an escape.

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Chris:

Right, right. And that's where some of the training comes in, where when you experience helium, you don't just get the setting that may provide the escape, but you get the feedback that's tied in to let you know, if you're truly giving yourself a mental break that, you know, is what you're hoping to be able to do and kind of call on demand. Ya, I know, I've gone through the same thing. Great. Go ahead, please.

Sarah:

 No, you go ahead, Chris.

Chris: 

Oh no,I was gonna say I've gone through the same thing with my own meditation, practice of searching for these kinds of internal triggers that make sense only to me, right? To bring me back into a mindset. So one of them is this, just a word, allow, right. And so if I say that to myself, sometimes it gets me back into this mode of calm and lack of anxiety and emptiness, whatever one may be searching for while meditating. And I've been so curious as to whether it would be even more powerful of a recall. Right, and an ability to know if I'm truly in, in changing my body's performance, you know, with something like Healium, but yeah, I didn't want to interrupt that that's, but but but I'm kind of buying into this whole premise.

Sarah:

And you cut out there, so I wasn't able to hear you finish, finish the rest of it, but I can answer it as best as I can. And that is, whatever works for you, you should continue to do. Not everyone, you know, appreciates. An audio meditation, not everyone creates appreciates a visual meditation. So it's just something that you have to do trial and error. And you know, that's one of the, one of the things that some people struggle with traditional meditation, or they get bored with traditional meditation, because there's no feedback to know, am I doing it right? And well, some experienced meditators, like yourself, are able to discern inside them, what are those cues that allow them to know that they are, you know, downshifting their nervous system? Or, you know, increasing their feelings of happiness? And, you know, for me, I always struggled, am, am I doing it, right. And so, you know, this, this was a way that I could see my feelings, displayed in a way that I could understand that I could learn how to control that was engaging, and also empowering. So you know, there's something about, you know, being able to light up an entire solar system by calming your mind, or lowering your heart rate, you know, I did that. And also getting the feedback when it darkens of how you need to breathe or what you need to think about in order to make that solar system light up again. And then you know, when you get in a stressful situation, and you don't have a wearable, you might not have an EEG headband, you might not have a smartwatch. Well, you know, that's okay, because you've created a stored memory that you can remember that feeling or that, you know, breath, breath work that you did in order to make that solar system light up. And I'm glad that you have a trigger word for you that triggers in a positive way. And, you know, that's an I can, you know, what we're doing with Healium is providing those positive positive media that is meant to trigger it in an emotional response and a memory that they can go back to some people, But when you say before a stressful situation, you know, go to a beach in your mind, some people have the ability to do that instantly. And then there are those, those of us who, you know, struggle with that or struggle to stay engaged with that imaginary figure of a beach. And to me, I want to see the beach, I want to see the waves, I want to hear them crashing. You know, and while there is no replacement for reality, this is just one of the ways that you can remember the wonderful things of the beach, if you don't have the ability to physically be there in person.

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Chris:

Right. And with helium, you're taking this experience or you're like your, your distribution and business model, you offer both directly to consumers and then to enterprises. I believe that's right. And then have you found that the line has blurred it all between b2b and b2c?

Sarah:

Yes, specifically, in the wake of the pandemic, that line between b2b and b2c is very thin. Because what is an enterprise very often it's a collection of people, perhaps working from home. So we're seeing that line blurred back to be a little bit more defined right now. But, you know, it is, you know, very symbiotic between the two. So, if you're an enterprise or if you're a consumer, we have certainly have a product to you, for you. And you can just go to, go to our website, and it has more information for businesses on how they can offer Healium at, you know, no cost to them, to their employees.

Chris:

Right. And it's how does onboarding work, with different I guess, categories of users and customers. And just asking from a cost of hardware perspective, that, you know, I mean, the least friction you can have in using a new thing, the more likely people will be to activate and come back one day. Now, to use Healium, you need a VR headset to get the feedback, you need some kind of wearable device that's going to be giving you that feedback. How has..

Sarah:

Actually you don't need a headset?

Chris:

Okay, you don’t.

Sarah:

Yeah, actually, you don't need you don't need virtual reality goggles, you can use it just on your mobile device, either with a wearable or without a wearable. So if all you have is your phone, it's not as immersive and not as engaging, obviously, as getting that feedback from a wearable. But in its simplest form, these are augmented reality guided meditations that don't have feedback unless you plug in your Apple Watch, or EEG headband.

Chris:

Right, right. Okay, got it. Yeah, have you found people getting kinda like the same similar experiences depending on what device or feedback they use? Or is there kind of a spectrum there?

Sarah:

People definitely report they have their favourite experiences. So, you know, we had an experience where you were inside cherry blossoms, and they would float all around you in real video in, in Washington, DC. And we took it off in order to remaster it. And, you know, there were many backlash from a customer saying what happened to that? I love that one. That was one of my favourite ones. And people develop different emotional attachments, to different experiences. So we were in Switzerland a couple of years ago, sharing Healium with some groups there. And, you know, they were not at all they wanted to see all of the beach experiences, right? And not really interested in the snow globe. But you know, you go to a warm climate, and obviously, all they want to do is be in a snow globe, because it's something that they don't, you know, naturally get to see. So it all depends on your experiences. Some people have very emotional attachments to waterfalls, because they've had a memory that's there, or a peaceful forest, or, you know, floating underneath the glow reef. We have an experience we just launched called sparkling harbour, and you glide over a bioluminescent Beach, which is kind of fun. And so, you know, people react differently to different experiences. And a lot of it has to do with, you know, their own nurturer you know how they grew up around? There's different surroundings.

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Chris:

Yeah. And you've positioned Healium as a mental wellness company, instead of, let's say, a medical device company. And you know, but at the same time, you're getting this tremendous feedback and you're in these clinically validated studies. Can you explain it? And this is really for our audience of entrepreneurs who need to cross that bridge at some point? What, what was your thought process, and whether to go, you know, one route to be a mental wellness company versus maybe an FDA cleared medical device?

Sarah:

Well, you have to start somewhere, right. And it needs to be supported by science, in whichever way that you go. And, you know, certainly both have their own, their own, I'm blanking on the word, but their own threshold, you know, what's considered clinical validation. And with Healium, even though a fitness product or a wellness product, might not have to have a very high threshold for, with clinical validation, we wanted our products to be backed by science. And so that's why we sought external research partners, and also internal research as well, every piece of content that we create, we do a brain map on and see, how does this particular experience impact brain patterns and heart rate? Not that that's a necessity, but you know, to inform our own experiences, we want to make them, them better. And that starts with, you know, testing on how does media impacts brain patterns and, and heart rate. And so, you know, that's just a personal decision of the own company on which way you want to go. But you have to start somewhere. And so, you know, there are some companies that wait until they've raised, you know, millions of dollars, then, then they can go for FDA approval for a prescriptive piece of software or software as a medical device. And then there are other companies who have a low, they develop a low risk general wellness device, which, you know, under the 21st century, Cures Act under the, under the FDA, those low risk general wellness devices, for the self management of conditions, is it regulated by the FDA? Because it's low risk, there isn't anything wiped on the skin, nothing is consumed. And we don't make medical, medical complaints. This is a self awareness tool. It's a fitness tool. Do we have research that shows that it does impact positivity, and that it does impact brain patterns? Yes, but we're not making many medical claims. And if you truly want to know, you know, the headbands we use are not diagnostic and in any way, it's a self awareness tool. And if you truly want to know and get an accurate picture of what is going on inside your mind from a diagnostic or treatment purposes, that's when you need the services of the great, you know, psychologist, psychiatrist, and Neurofeedback specialists out there who do specialise in clinical diagnosis and clinical interventions. So it's a purchase, personal choice for the company. But for us, we absolutely  wanted to make sure that, you know, our products were backed by science, regardless of who we are, whether or not they were being served inside or outside a physician's office.

Chris:

Yeah, that's really, yeah, you know, it's a fascinating decision to make and talk to a couple of other digital therapeutics companies and cost. One of the challenges with trying to go through the path or prescriptions for a digital therapeutic is just the fact that unlike, let's say, other types of consumer focused startups, you can't change things in react to new things that you're learning as quickly because you're going through these, you know your long protocols and studies. Just to demonstrate what you, you know, the ideas that you had two years ago are the ideas that are going to work. Whereas, okay, you can spin up, you know, different levels of validation, and, you know, clinical validation, even in a much more dynamic way, and agile way if you're not going that approach. So like you mentioned, you guys get to produce new content and measure right away, hey, is this going to be better at helping people maintain their calm or be able to control their brain waves or heart rate, and get that immediate, kind of validation, whereas if you go another approach, you don't necessarily have that opportunity to be more constantly improving? So yeah, I really had that. Yeah, go ahead.

Sarah:

And that's a great point. And there are companies who are creating very important products for digital therapeutics. And so companies like Akili interactive, that you might be familiar with, they recently received FDA clearance for endeavor RX, that's for children with ADHD, and that's the first prescription treatment that's delivered through a video game. And so you know, Akili, really, you know, they are the canaries in the mind, that everyone is looking at, because they really paved the way in, you know, using video games, essentially, to how they call it play your, your medicine. And so you'll see more and more digital therapeutics or dtx companies that are, are taking that route, or they'll start as a mental wellness, intervention, and, you know, gather the clinical validation through use, and then, you know, go for a full a 5 10 K. But, you know, there are very different decisions that, that, you know, go into that and it, it depends on, you know, what kind of claims do you want to make? And is your device, invasive or not, and for other companies that are listening, the FDA has great resources on their website, if you just Google low risk, general wellness device, FDA, it will pull up, you know, rubrics that you can go through to determine, you know, does my device require FDA approval? Or clearance? Or is this something that can be offered as a low risk general wellness device?

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Chris:

Right. Okay. Yeah, I know that that's a great tip. For many entrepreneurs that we talked to, were wondering the same thing. Where are you guys going next, with Healium would love to know if there's any Gosh, future product plans, growth plans, new endeavours?

Sarah:

Yeah, we are adding wearables, additional wearables to the platform all the time. So we're hardware agnostic, we can work with any wearable. So if there's someone out there who has a request of one that they would want to work on the platform. Right now, Healium is powered by Apple Watch, and the brain Link Light EEG headband. 100, more than 100 million people have those, those two devices. And so, you know, ultimately, Healium isn't just a product, but that core technology that allows you to connect any wearable to the metaverse AR, VR, mixed reality assets. And, you know, that's the beauty of our immersive media products is that you can power them with your, your body's electricity. So that's always on our future roadmap. We're also developing new digital course, all the time. So we recently launched sleep em that you may be familiar as a soft launch. And so if you go into the Healium apps, you'll see sleep em in there. And all of that is content that's designed to relax you before you go to bed at night.

Chris:

Got it? Yeah. And you talked about the metaverse and AR and VR and mixed reality. And now this proliferation of different consumer wearables, and then, at the same time, we've talked about the stress Olympics and the rise of the mental health epidemic, and then this, what used to be the cure all for these things, prescribing lots of medications is, you know, no longer as well, well taken or received by anybody. Where do you see all of this heading in terms of these trends and how it will impact helium or the broader mental fitness and human performance space?

Sarah:

It's a great question because certainly the opioid epidemic has impacted, you know, what people think about taking, you know, taking a pill, however, you know, this is not a replacement for psychotropic medication. And anyway, it's not a replacement for any kind of medication. And, you know, medication obviously has great value in our world. And so, you know, that's not to say that you at all, that you should use helium and quit taking your medication. No, that's the total polar opposite of, you know, what you should do, you should talk with your, your doctor, and, you know, see what they recommend that you should, you should be doing. But for people who, you know, me personally, I can just speak about myself, I wasn't a good, good candidate for medication. And so, you know, this was a drugless, non harmful coping mechanism, something I could do for myself, to learn to self regulate, and, you know, try to feel more empowered, and that this was one small thing that I could do for myself, to move the needle on on my own on my own mental wellness. But you have an interesting confluence of, of trends, as you said, you have the rise of the opioid epidemic, where people are looking for more drugless solutions, you have the rise of consumer wearables. And after all, what are you going to do with that data, you have the rise of the stress Olympics and the mental health emergency. And, you know, it is, is Healium is certainly in line with all of those different areas along with the rise of the metaverse. And we know that immersive media compared to flat 2d media is not as memorable. And it's not as engaging. And so you have that research, along with the rise of digital calls and digital therapeutics that have historically been served in the flat world. And so you know, what you're you'll, you'll be seeing with a lot of these GTX companies is they're realizing, well, the world is no longer flat, it's becoming a place that you step into, whether that be in your mobile device, or in a virtual reality headset. And so that's what I'm excited to see over the coming months and years, is, you know, more technology, more companies really realizing that the flat world of digital therapeutics certainly had its place. But if you want to impact brain patterns and heart rate, there, there are new ways to do that, that research has shown can be more memorable and engaging.

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Chris:

Yeah, and speaking of stepping into new world, I got a few questions around your experience as a startup founder. One is, you know, 10 years ago, when you were a television journalist, did you have any inclination to become an entrepreneur yourself? Or is it just something that came organically through you're experiencing your own stress through the reporting?

Sarah:

So journalists make great entrepreneurs, because ultimately, you're not selling your product, you're selling your story. And, you know, that's what I do every single day on telling, you know, my story, and the stories of the people who use our experiences and our employees. But no, when I first graduated from journalism school in 1993, that was not at all on my radar that, you know, I would create an immersive media company. In the metaverse connecting biometric data, it just, you know, it was not a linear path. And anyway, it took many twists and turns, all of those points in time, which had a profound impact on you know, what we we developed what we developed today, but journalists are naturally curious person, they are afraid to talk to people, which is helpful in sales situations, you know, before you have a sales team, you are your first salesperson. So you absolutely have to, you know, drum up and, you know, go out into the community, you have to know how to share your, your story verbally, as well as in written form. And you also have to have a high level of digital literacy. And that's something that journalists and digital storytellers have, they know, social media, they know about search engine optimization, they know about graphic designs. And if you think of it, you know, journalists as entrepreneurs are really that one woman band, if you will, that ultimately has the ability to create and get started on products before you have that full orchestra.

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Chris:

Yeah, so as a startup founder, you uncover that entrepreneurship is such a tough ride, right? And there are going to be highs and lows and rejections, criticisms for whether you're building the right thing, or you're, you know, if you're a crazy innovator, or brilliant innovator, and it's tough. How have you been coping with such ups and downs? And how has it impacted mental health? And I guess, do you rely on Healium to stay mentally strong?

Sarah:

Absolutely, specifically, specifically before sleep. So there's, if there's one thing that I want any of your entrepreneurs who are listening to this broadcast to hear it's this, and that is your family, and your friends, or your partners, or your pets, your brother, your sister, your neighbors, who you live by, they are your first founders. And so before you take a step forward into opening your company, it has to make sure that you've developed the support system and network who is going to surround you with love and care when you fall down. Because you, as an entrepreneur, you are absolutely going to fall down, you're gonna absolutely have bad days. And so you know, make sure that you vetted that decision and say, Hey, even though you're not my co founder, as a, you know, equity in the company, as my family member, you are absolutely into this ride with me. And so you have to make sure that they're on board as your unofficial co founder, you also need to surround yourself with drugless non harmful coping mechanisms, right. Because you will get punched in the gut. And certainly, in trying to raise money, as any founder, you will get told on a daily basis that your baby's ugly, you know, we've received hundreds of, of no’s nearing about 300 no’s, you know, in investment calls over the years. And you know, the first ones sting a lot. And the second ones don't, at all those no’s are data, they're their fertiliser, in that they're kind of stinky, and you, you put them all over you and you wallow in, in the stink for a while. And then ultimately you realise, you know what, what they told me about that, that was important, and that was information that helped me grow. So, you know, in our shop, we celebrate the no’s, like literally we do, like we stand up on the couch, and we say, Hey, we got this, you know, negative feedback from whatever and then everybody claps you know, because it's data, it's a very important data we know will bring us one step closer to a yes. And so you know, you kind of got to trick your own mind in when and to be able to properly place that grief from the kns that you get or you will die. Like you will wither and shrivel you know if you don't have the ability to take them and you know, give yourself at a girl's at had a boys because there is no boss really telling you I mean, there are bosses, obviously you have, you know your your board and your investors, but on a daily basis, there's there's no one, you know, stepping back to say let's evaluate your performance what you did good today. And so you really have to look at it, look at yourself in the mirror and say, You know what, Sarah, you did these things well today and good for you. Because if you will, that will certainly get you to the gym the next day. But it's a great profession. I love my job, I get up enthusiastically, you know, and come in early every single day, because I have passion for what we've built, where we're going and you know, our amazing employees that, that we work with. So I couldn't recommend it enough. Just proceed with caution and making sure that if you do struggle with your own mental wellness, which I did, as an entrepreneur that's going to be exacerbated, exacerbated. And so you know, focus on the things that you can control. And you surround yourself with that support mechanism drugless, non harmful coping mechanism, get good sleep, and mind your media diet.

Chris:

Right, sir, I think that's great advice. I think you are definitely a natural at this. And I noticed on your LinkedIn, you're a CEO and chief storyteller. And I can absolutely tell that gosh, the, the empathy and curiosity that you mentioned, from your journalism days are absolutely the thing that makes you so relatable and probably making helium so relatable to people. I think it's awesome. So excited to practice myself.

Sarah:

Thank you so much, that's very kind words. So right back at you good luck in your personal pursuits. And thank you for giving a forum to those entrepreneurs.

Chris:

Absolutely. No, thank you for, for coming on. And gosh, if every, if even any entrepreneur can control their stress levels, any entrepreneur knows that's a superpower. If you can do that, so try Healium, everybody. Sarah will be rooting for you. And in this case, definitely using the product.

Sarah:

Positive vibes to you as well keep going.

Chris:

Okay, thank you.

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